Why cultivating agency matters more than cultivating skills in the AI era | Max Schoening (Head of Product, Notion) (1h 27m)

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• Release date: 2026-05-03
• Listen on Spotify: Open episode
• Episode description:

  Max Schoening is head of product at Notion, where he’s been especially effective at getting designers and PMs to ship code, prototype in the terminal, and launch extremely successful AI products. He was previously a PM at Google, ran design at Heroku, was VP of Design (and a part-time engineer) at GitHub, and is a two-time founder. He’s one of the most AI-forward product leaders out there and one of the deepest thinkers on how AI changes how we build and use software.We discuss:What’s most worked in getting designers and PMs to embrace AIWhy agency—not skills—is the thing that separates people who thrive from those who fall behindHow the first 10% of every project is now “free,” and what that means for product developmentMax’s “tiny core” theory of great products: iPhone multitouch, the GitHub pull request, Notion blocks, Dropbox’s menu bar iconWhy the SaaSpocalypse is overstatedWhy the amount of software has exploded but the quality hasn’t, and why that gap creates opportunity—Brought to you by:WorkOS—Make your app Enterprise Ready, with SSO, SCIM, RBAC, and moreVanta—Automate compliance, manage risk, and accelerate trust with AI—Episode transcript: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/why-cultivating-agency-matters-more—Archive of all Lenny's Podcast transcripts: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fo/yxi4s2w998p1gvtpu4193/AMdNPR8AOw0lMklwtnC0TrQ?rlkey=j06x0nipoti519e0xgm23zsn9&st=ahz0fj11&dl=0—Where to find Max Schoening:• X: https://x.com/mschoening• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/max-schoening• Website: https://max.dev—Where to find Lenny:• Newsletter: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com• X: https://twitter.com/lennysan• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lennyrachitsky/—In this episode, we cover:(00:00) Introduction to Max Schoening(01:55) The origin story of designers coding at Notion(06:30) How much designers and PMs are shipping today(08:24) The balance between shipping code and strategic work(10:32) Why agency will help you thrive in the AI era(11:49) Examples of high agency at Notion(13:52) What we might lose as roles merge(15:56) Advice for developing agency(17:42) Malleable software explained(20:43) The Dieter Rams video and design philosophy(24:00) The SaaS apocalypse debate(28:25) How product building has changed in the past two years(30:27) What’s next in how we build products(34:16) Token spend and ROI conversations(37:39) Getting people to change how they work(39:04) Max’s AI stack(41:41) Which roles AI will transform next(44:26) When companies will start caring about ROI(48:38) Why Notion AI is so successful(51:47) How to ship more quickly while maintaining quality(56:40) Building taste through iterations(1:00:09) What matters most in building successful products(1:05:06) Using the jobs-to-be-done framework(1:07:28) Hot take on universal basic income(1:09:26) What Max would do with AGI(1:10:53) Contrarian corner(1:13:14) Failure corner(1:16:20) Advice for young people in Silicon Valley(1:19:20) Lightning round and final thoughts—Referenced: https://www.lennysnewsletter.com/p/why-cultivating-agency-matters-more—Production and marketing by https://penname.co/. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@lennyrachitsky.com.—Lenny may be an investor in the companies discussed.

Summary

• 🧠 Agency as the New Currency: In an AI world, personal agency—tinkering and driving change—outweighs raw skills, empowering individuals to reshape their roles and environments.
• ⚡ Rapid Prototyping Revolution: AI makes the initial 10% of projects effortless, favoring demos over documents and accelerating iteration in product development.
• 🔧 Malleable Software Empowerment: Future software should prioritize user customization over corporate rigidity, with AI enabling collaborative, adaptable tools like physical spaces.
• 🎨 Taste Through Iteration: Building ‘taste’ via reps and feedback loops, akin to AI training, is crucial for discerning exceptional products amid automated creation.
• 💡 Tiny Core Superpowers: Successful products hinge on one perfected element, like a pull request, rather than feature accumulation, guiding AI-enhanced innovation.

Insights

• How can cultivating personal agency become the ultimate superpower in an AI-driven world where skills are commoditized?
  • Time: 0:00 – 11:49
  • Answer: With AI providing accessible skills, the speaker argues that agency—the drive to act, tinker, and reshape one’s environment—distinguishes those who thrive from those who don’t, awakening the realization that the world is malleable and built by ordinary people.
• Could blurring roles where designers and PMs code with AI lead to more innovative and cohesive software teams?
  • Time: 3:00 – 10:21
  • Answer: At Notion, AI playgrounds allow non-engineers to prototype in code, fostering deeper understanding of the medium and reducing handoffs, though it risks losing specialists if not balanced.
• Why might malleable software, empowered by AI, restore user ownership over rigid corporate-designed apps?
• Will AI spell the end of specialized SaaS, or transform it into more general, maintainable platforms?
• What if the first 10% of every project became essentially free, revolutionizing how teams prototype and iterate with AI?
• Is developing ‘taste’ through iterative reps and feedback the key to creating standout products in an AI era?
• What if great products succeed not through feature bloat, but by perfecting one tiny, exceptional core superpower?
• Could knowledge work already represent a form of universal basic income, even as AI reshapes the workforce?

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